The quote was just a "soundbite", sort of a bait for people to read the whole thing.
Of course, from his perspective he is right - if there is no G-d, then the whole thing looks like a grim pagan tale. What amazes me is the guy's arrogance. It just oozes from every word of his.
>А тот, кто не работает пока в Трех Линиях...
I do not like this conclusion. It is also a bit arrogant. The interpretation itself is relatively "standard" (if such a thing exists).
BTW, what bothers me with all the interpretations, is that there are so many degrees of freedom that anything can be turned in practically every direction by a trained mind. R. Soloveitchik (in the post to which you link), for example, uses it to promulgate a very specific agenda.
I read it and I dont know if his arrogance is overly excesive... and if it is - why would it amaze you? since "from his perspective he is right - if there is no G-d..."
> I do not like this conclusion. It is also a bit arrogant.
1) It is not mine... so you are free to disagree :-))))))))
2) Maybe I will concede some... Then again maybe it is just sub-optimaly worded... i.e. his lingo - "хоть на каком уровне, пусть подготовительном" - is meant to include anyone who needs to be included.
> BTW, what bothers me with all the interpretations, > is that there are so many degrees of freedom that > anything can be turned in practically every direction by a trained mind.
Bingo!!!!!! At this point in my evolution I almost pay more attantion to "who said it", than to "what was said" :-) We know there are at least 150 ways LETAHER SHERETZ...
> R. Soloveitchik (in the post to which you link), for example, uses it to promulgate a very specific agenda.
By the way, though I am at times not in sync with what I've read/seen from R.Soloveitchik, but in this case - it seems quite edible LE KOL HA DEOT
>I read it and I dont know if his arrogance is overly excesive...
If they're genuinely intelligent, it does not involve the supernatural.
If you had to make a case for religion-one positive, if minor, thing religion has done--what would it be?
...I really don't think I can think of anything; I really can't.
What I hope for is a world ruled by enlightened rationality
And "rational", of course, is what Prof. Dawkins considers as such. I know a bit about rationality, after all I study at a place that is called The Center for the Study of Rationality. Let me tell you: first of all, there is a debate on what exactly "rational" means. There is, for example, personal, egoistic rationality. On the other hand there exist cooperative rationality among various groups. There could be short-term or long term rationality. There is full rationality or bounded (heuristic) rationality. There is deterministic rationality or rationality under uncertainty. And more.
There are about only two things people more or less agree upon: (1) egoistic deterministic short-term rationality (like, it is irrational to wait for a bus at a place where you know full well it does not go) (2) full long-term rationality under uncertainty is infeasible, and therefore people have to rely on heuristics (quick and dirty solutions that work most of the time in most of the cases). Those heuristics are so deeply entrenched in human psyche that often lead to contradictions even in short-term decision-making (usually non-deterministic). There are really facinating examples (I'll try to find and post some) of such contradictions. When confronted with the results, some people change their minds in one of the cases, some do not understand that there is a contradiction, and there are some that understand the contradiction, but stand by their decisions - they are just hard-wired that way.
So if there is no agreement on what "rational" is, and people, by their first nature, are irrational, the words "enlightened rationality" become just that - empty words. Nothing more than a nicely-sounding slogan for militant atheists.
By the way, there is a school of thought that tries to explain social phenomena (and religion is certainly one of the biggies) as a product of social evolution. In other words, if a phenomenon exists, it must be somehow good under the existing circumstances for the mankind (it does not mean that the result is optimal, it just means that the system in an equilibrium).
You say religion is so ingrained in society that it's like a computer virus. Can it really be eradicated?
Only by education and reason.
It seems the guy still lives in the 19th century, when they believed reason could do anything. Herbert Simon, for example, in Reason in Human Affairs says that reason is a powerful tool to take you from your assumptions and facts to their conclusions. But your assumptions could be, really, almost anything. And your facts must be straight (which is not always possible) and complete (which is almost never possible). I submit that he made his decision to become an atheist not on complete and exhaustive examination of the facts, but rather on a gut feeling.
>By the way, though I am at times not in sync with what I've read/seen from R.Soloveitchik, but in this case - it seems quite edible LE KOL HA DEOT
I do not exactly know which R.Soloveitchik he is talking about (there are/were quite a few), but they are all fully accepted (if such a thing exists :) ) in all the circles I know.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2007-07-17 04:33 pm (UTC)Кстати (или не совсем, но все равно) люблю процитировать:
... Наверняка, многие слышали историю об «Акедат Ицхак» (Жертвоприношении Ицхака). Вкратце сюжет таков: Создатель приказывает Аврааму принести в жертву
своего сына, Ицхака, и Авраам выполняет повеление Всевышнего,
но в последний момент появляется Ангел, который удерживает
руку Авраама, занесенную над сыном, и тот остается в живых.
Что это означает в Духовной Реальности? Человек поднимается в Высшие Миры, используя т.н. Гимель Кавим (Три Линии). Одна из них называется «правой». Ее сущностью является свойство ХЕСЕД (черта, которую символизирует Авраам). ХЕСЕД означет «доволен имеющимся».
В этом состоянии (или линии) человек испытывает огромную благодарность Творцу, удостоившему его столь великого дара – ощутить свою бессмертную, вечную, непреходящую сущность, именуемую Божественной Душой человека.Он чувствует, что бОльшего совершенства невозможно себе представить. Поэтому, он называется ПРАВЕДНИКОМ (цадик) – ведь он ОПРАВДЫВАЕТ (мацдик) своего Создателя всем существом своим, поскольку именно всем существом ощущает великое благо, идущее от Него. А ощущающий благо, естественным образом любит и ценит Того, Кто даровал это ему...
Однако, у этого состояния есть один недостаток – а именно, отсутствие
потребности в развитии и дальнейшем духовном росте. Если все так прекрасно, зачем чего-то менять? Поэтому, для того чтобы сделать следующий шаг, необходимо подключить «левую линию», иначе называемую ГВУРА, и это свойство, присущее Ицхаку. ГВУРА – это КРИТИЧЕСКИЙ анализ своего положения: а достиг ли я уже полного исправления, выполнил ли всю работу, возложенную на меня? Да, я нахожусь на определенной Духовной Ступени (предположим, в Мире Асия). Но есть и более высокие Миры, более высокие состояния – Йецира, Брия, Ацилют... Выходит, я обязан выйти из статичного состояния (каким бы хорошим оно не было), и работать дальше, брать и исправлять более высокие части своей Души...
Эти линии находятся в противоречии друг с другом – ведь «доволен имеющимся» исключает критический анализ – «чего еще мне не хватает»? Поэтому, чтобы их примирить, нужно нечто третье, синтез этих двух начал.
Синтезом левой и правой линии является КАВ ЭМЦАИ – средняя линия, состоящая из сочетания правой и левой. Но вот в каких пропорциях они должны сочетаться?
Ответ на это содержит название рассказа: Акедат Ицхак. Акеда на иврите это не жертвоприношение, а буквально – СВЯЗЫВАНИЕ, поскольку жертвенное животное связывали, прежде чем возложить на жертвенник.
Иными словами, правая линия (Авраам) должна доминировать над левой
(Ицхак), поэтому Авраам «связывает», «подчиняет» Ицхака. Однако, полностью уничтожать левую линию нельзя – ведь тогда не будет и продвижения. Вот почему Ангел Господа останавливает Авраама, собиравшегося зарезать Ицхака. Нельзя истреблять в себе свойство ГВУРА – но оно должно быть «связано», подчинено, правой линии, ХЕСЕД. Говоря проще, бОльшую часть своего времени каббалист должен проводить в состоянии ХЕСЕД (правая линия, «доволен имеющимся»), и лишь изредка, в строго установленное время, подключать критический анализ (левая линия, ГВУРА).
======================================
Вот так, Тора говорит о настоящем. А тот, кто не работает пока в Трех Линиях, хоть на каком уровне, пусть подготовительном - для него этот отрывок из ТАНАХа малопонятная и мрачноватая легенда и не более того. Т.е. нечто, к нему лично отношения не имеющее... Не настоящее, не прошлое и не будущее. Ничто....
no subject
Date: 2007-07-17 10:51 pm (UTC)The quote was just a "soundbite", sort of a bait for people to read the whole thing.
Of course, from his perspective he is right - if there is no G-d, then the whole thing looks like a grim pagan tale. What amazes me is the guy's arrogance. It just oozes from every word of his.
>А тот, кто не работает пока в Трех Линиях...
I do not like this conclusion. It is also a bit arrogant. The interpretation itself is relatively "standard" (if such a thing exists).
BTW, what bothers me with all the interpretations, is that there are so many degrees of freedom that anything can be turned in practically every direction by a trained mind. R. Soloveitchik (in the post to which you link), for example, uses it to promulgate a very specific agenda.
no subject
Date: 2007-07-18 06:20 am (UTC)> What amazes me is the guy's arrogance.
I read it and I dont know if his arrogance is overly excesive...
and if it is - why would it amaze you? since "from his perspective he is right - if there is no G-d..."
> I do not like this conclusion. It is also a bit arrogant.
1)
It is not mine... so you are free to disagree :-))))))))
2)
Maybe I will concede some...
Then again maybe it is just sub-optimaly worded...
i.e. his lingo - "хоть на каком уровне, пусть подготовительном" -
is meant to include anyone who needs to be included.
> BTW, what bothers me with all the interpretations,
> is that there are so many degrees of freedom that
> anything can be turned in practically every direction by a trained mind.
Bingo!!!!!!
At this point in my evolution I almost pay more attantion to "who said it", than to "what was said" :-)
We know there are at least 150 ways LETAHER SHERETZ...
> R. Soloveitchik (in the post to which you link), for example, uses it to promulgate a very specific agenda.
By the way, though I am at times not in sync with what I've read/seen from R.Soloveitchik,
but in this case - it seems quite edible LE KOL HA DEOT
On Dawkins's arrogance
Date: 2007-07-18 07:36 am (UTC)If they're genuinely intelligent, it does not involve the supernatural.
If you had to make a case for religion-one positive, if minor, thing religion has done--what would it be?
...I really don't think I can think of anything; I really can't.
What I hope for is a world ruled by enlightened rationality
And "rational", of course, is what Prof. Dawkins considers as such. I know a bit about rationality, after all I study at a place that is called The Center for the Study of Rationality. Let me tell you: first of all, there is a debate on what exactly "rational" means. There is, for example, personal, egoistic rationality. On the other hand there exist cooperative rationality among various groups. There could be short-term or long term rationality. There is full rationality or bounded (heuristic) rationality. There is deterministic rationality or rationality under uncertainty. And more.
There are about only two things people more or less agree upon: (1) egoistic deterministic short-term rationality (like, it is irrational to wait for a bus at a place where you know full well it does not go) (2) full long-term rationality under uncertainty is infeasible, and therefore people have to rely on heuristics (quick and dirty solutions that work most of the time in most of the cases). Those heuristics are so deeply entrenched in human psyche that often lead to contradictions even in short-term decision-making (usually non-deterministic). There are really facinating examples (I'll try to find and post some) of such contradictions. When confronted with the results, some people change their minds in one of the cases, some do not understand that there is a contradiction, and there are some that understand the contradiction, but stand by their decisions - they are just hard-wired that way.
So if there is no agreement on what "rational" is, and people, by their first nature, are irrational, the words "enlightened rationality" become just that - empty words. Nothing more than a nicely-sounding slogan for militant atheists.
By the way, there is a school of thought that tries to explain social phenomena (and religion is certainly one of the biggies) as a product of social evolution. In other words, if a phenomenon exists, it must be somehow good under the existing circumstances for the mankind (it does not mean that the result is optimal, it just means that the system in an equilibrium).
You say religion is so ingrained in society that it's like a computer virus. Can it really be eradicated?
Only by education and reason.
It seems the guy still lives in the 19th century, when they believed reason could do anything. Herbert Simon, for example, in Reason in Human Affairs says that reason is a powerful tool to take you from your assumptions and facts to their conclusions. But your assumptions could be, really, almost anything. And your facts must be straight (which is not always possible) and complete (which is almost never possible). I submit that he made his decision to become an atheist not on complete and exhaustive examination of the facts, but rather on a gut feeling.
I can understand doubt. I hate snobism.
no subject
Date: 2007-07-18 07:42 am (UTC)I do not exactly know which R.Soloveitchik he is talking about (there are/were quite a few), but they are all fully accepted (if such a thing exists :) ) in all the circles I know.
That was not my point, as you well realize.
no subject
Date: 2007-07-18 07:48 am (UTC)