[identity profile] shaulreznik.livejournal.com 2004-05-22 10:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Короче говоря, подозрения р. Вольпо имеют под собой реальную почву.

[identity profile] malenkiy-scot.livejournal.com 2004-05-22 11:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Больше я опасаюсь того, не оказался ли он прав насчет "так называемых гдойлей 'адор" (см. псак Эйды 'ахарейдит; перестать есть их 'ашгоху, что ли ;-) ).

[identity profile] malenkiy-scot.livejournal.com 2004-05-23 01:55 am (UTC)(link)
Кстати, насчет "пикантных пунктов": обратите внимание, как р. Абади язвит в нескольких местах псака.

[identity profile] shaulreznik.livejournal.com 2004-05-23 02:00 am (UTC)(link)
При этом, ИМХО, платок на голове выглядит куда скромнее и куда более по-еврейски, чем парик из настоящих волос. :-)

[identity profile] shaulreznik.livejournal.com 2004-05-23 02:13 am (UTC)(link)
Естественно. Но: что скромнее - длинная юбка или непрозрачные чулки? Аргументы Ребе насчет Эйзенхауэра абсолютно логичны, но интересно бы выяснить, что им предшествовало: опасение, что в ассимилированном обществе женщины вообще постесняются покрывать голову или явное преимущество парика перед всем остальным.

[identity profile] malenkiy-scot.livejournal.com 2004-05-23 04:01 am (UTC)(link)
но интересно бы выяснить

And that's precisely what I mean when I say that the question has become political!! It is no longer possible to (semi-)objectively study the problem, since one's opinion is so much predicated on what side of the fence he is sitting.

что скромнее - длинная юбка или непрозрачные чулки
There is at least one more consideration here: "sheloi tisgane al baalo". You could all be dressed in black from head to toe: it is very tsniusdik, but is it jewish? (Just throwing this in).

Another consideration: the Zohar is adamant about ALL the hair being comletely covered (this is from Magen Avrohom, I did not see the zohar inside) (unlike the Talmud, that allows for some leniency). The scarves (of the regular kinds) allow for hair to stick out.

[identity profile] nomen-nescio.livejournal.com 2004-05-23 04:02 am (UTC)(link)
А с каких пор Зоѓар является ѓалахическим авторитетом? Мы ж из него ѓалаху не учим...

[identity profile] malenkiy-scot.livejournal.com 2004-05-23 05:09 am (UTC)(link)
Мы ж из него ѓалаху не учим...
I am not able to argue this point, since I am myself very unclear on it. It definetely has some weight in haloho: what kind of weight depends on the poisek, and I am not exactly sure about the "rules". It seems, however, that with other things being equal poiskim sometimes rely on the Zohar.

Among hsidim and sefardim what Zohar says has greater weight than among litaim. So my point was that the Rebe's opinion might rely on the Zohar, esp. if we assume that there's not problem wearing a wig lechatchilo.

А с каких пор Зоѓар является ѓалахическим авторитетом?
At least since the times of Shulchon Oruch - it is brought down relatively frequently by the Mechaber and Magen Avrohom.

[identity profile] ymarkov.livejournal.com 2004-05-24 02:11 pm (UTC)(link)
It definetely has some weight in haloho: what kind of weight depends on the poisek, and I am not exactly sure about the "rules".
The rule seems to be: is the posek a mystic himself? Personally, I think that mysticism should have no role in halakha at all (disclaimer: I don't believe the Zohar to be what it claims to be). There were not a few rabbis who opposed the influence of Zohar and Zohar-based Kabbala on halakha. Those who didn't either were kabbalists themselves or found it unproductive to battle the masses, which became quite enamored of it.

[identity profile] sagi-nahor.livejournal.com 2004-05-24 11:07 pm (UTC)(link)
believe the Zohar to be what it claims to be

What does it claim to be?

Those who didn't either were kabbalists themselves or found it unproductive to battle the masses

To which group did the Vilna Gaon belong? ;-)

[identity profile] ymarkov.livejournal.com 2004-05-28 09:03 am (UTC)(link)
Correction: the Zohar itself apparently doesn't explicitly claim to be the work of Rashbi (although its working title was, at one early point, "Midrash de-Rabbi Shimon bar Yohai"). But its adherents do so attribute it. It's this claim that I don't subscribe to.

As for the Gaon miVilna, he did battle at least some masses, as you know. I'm not sure about his personal predilections; he did, apparently, have affinity to certain concepts thereof. But what did he think of the Zohar? He did comment on the Sefer Yetzira, but that is a much earlier work, and doesn't by itself develop in the direction he was afraid of re: hasidim.

As for R' Karo and Magen Avraham, I don't understand your statement re: universal acceptance. Where do you see that even for the Shulhan Arukh, never mind M"A? The Jews accepted the idea and layout of a code, but the code itself never won universal acceptance, as witness all the glosses thereof.

Bli neder and IY"H I'll post something on that on my LJ.

(BTW, why are we using English here?)

[identity profile] malenkiy-scot.livejournal.com 2004-06-01 10:54 am (UTC)(link)
As for R' Karo and Magen Avraham, I don't understand your statement re: universal acceptance. Where do you see that even for the Shulhan Arukh, never mind M"A?

Сефарды приняли Мехабера, ашкеназим - М"А (поэтому я привел обоих). Это не значит, что все со всем согласны, а то, что их приняли за базу. Таким образом, тот, кто изначально напрочь отвергает Зо'ар, как 'алахический аргумент, спорит с одним из базовых положений.

Я перешел на английский, когда писал из университета, и было лень возиться с транслитом.

[identity profile] malenkiy-scot.livejournal.com 2004-05-25 02:47 am (UTC)(link)
I think that mysticism should have no role
With all due respect - that's irrelevant. :)

There were not a few rabbis who opposed the influence of Zohar and Zohar-based Kabbala on halakha.
Very few of that kind are left now. In any case - I do not know any. (Would be interesting to find out if R. Moshe Feinstein ever referred to kabbalah in his psaks).

As a whole, the Jews have accepted the authority of the Mechaber and Magen Avrohom, if they rely on the Zohar - that's should be good enough for everybody.

А как же вот это этнографическое наблюдение:

[identity profile] nomen-nescio.livejournal.com 2004-05-23 02:42 am (UTC)(link)
http://www.frumteens.com/topic.php?topic_id=5277&forum_id=34&topic_title=Sheitels&forum_title=Chukas+Akum&M=1&S=1

[identity profile] sagi-nahor.livejournal.com 2004-05-25 01:13 am (UTC)(link)
Psak from Rav Yitzchok Raitport who permits lechatchilo the wigs made from Indian women's hair